There has been established a rather sad tradition in the ITC world of small companies using their creativity to open up new opportunities for established media organisation only for the benefiting body to turn around at some point and stamp on the innovators.
The Ordnance Survey is an organisation that has taken a lot of stick over recent years. As a government agency it has been required to become more commercial in its nature while remaining both a state agency and an effective monopoly. The Guardian’s open data campaign highlighted the peculiar position of the OS in effectively restricting access to national data. Meanwhile, the OS’s attitude to those who are developing computer mapping solutions has always struck me as being odd, if not simply unhelpful.
This morning a message from the OS dropped into my inbox announcing the launch of the new IOS App for iPhone and iPad. The new app allows you to use OS maps on IOS platforms and to buy them for download purposes. You can download individual maps or download individual map tiles. Also, the new app allows you to record routes as you move and also allows you to plot routes on your phone or tablet. No doubt an Android version of this app is in development.
Even those of you who don’t use IOS will recognise a lot of this feature set which is suspiciously like that offered by one of our major mapping companies. If I was running sic a company — or if I was one of their financial backers and investors — I would be seriously pissed off!
No doubt the effected third parties will argue that their product is more advanced but web-based mapping services are really pretty limited. I guess that many punters will simply go the OS website imagining that the official version is always the best.
Still, you can’t stand in the way of progress …
Sorry, I’m obviously missing something. How is this an example of “small companies using their creativity to open up new opportunities for established media organisation only for the benefiting body to turn around at some point and stamp on the innovators.”? It just sounds like several organisations have (or are planning) map apps. Location-based maps are an obvious winner with the growth of mobile use, so its not surprised more than one organisation is doing it now. Are you equally annoyed with Apple? Would you rather Ordnance Survey didn’t have a map app? Or do you think it should be free? Or do you think they’ve directly copied what someone else has done? Or do you think they should have given their maps to other companies to do their own app? How is any of this “biting the hands that feed”?
I do agree with your last sentence for sure – this is progress. I wish I understood what you wanted to happen instead.
Apologies, that does sound rather grumpier than I actually feel.
“this feature set which is suspiciously like that offered by one of our major mapping companies”
I’d say more than one.There are several companies offering OS map powered apps, doing the same job (in many cases for years) that OS is now bringing to market. Unless i’m mistaken, they all pay money to OS to license the maps. Now OS is potentially cutting them out/off by offering a direct option.
While i can appreciate its how the world works, i don’t consider it to be quite ‘fair’ on their paying (for a license) customers.
Oh I see, other companies were already using the maps. I can see why they would find things difficult.
This really is the problem. It is the small innovators that open up both ideas and markets. They have enough to struggle against without the OS stamping all over them!
This might represent “progress” but there is a very serious issue here.
The OS is not an innovative organisation. New ideas and concepts are and have ben developed by small companies who are using OS data in new ways. If OS crushes them by effectively duplicating what they have done they will be killing future innovation. And that is not in the interest of the consumer.
The OS will win whichever route they take as they receive the license money. It would be a very sad thing indeed if the small but innovative computer mapping industry was killed dead by OS.
One part of me thinks that this was inevitable (at some level). However, the OS is a public agency and as such has a wider and different set of responsibilities than a purely commercial entity.
what is even more annoying is that I understand OS had a fairly lengthy consultation period with the industry about all of this. The comments Tim and I have made were well made to them and they deliberately chose to ignore them.
There is one company, in particular, who will be effected by this but, ultimately, many more players in this industry feel threatened.
I’ve already spoken to three industry players today after writing this _ and none of them are happy bunnies! They all fee;l somewhat threatened.
This isn’t the first time the OS have done this. I have a web app which uses OS OpenSpace and I regularly blow the daily tile limit. Then OS say to me “why don’t you licence our tile service from us?” (at some considerable cost). But why would anyone pay me money for my service when OS provide a very similar web app, for free, on their web site.
They can’t decide if they’re a distributor or a retailer so they keep trying to be both. Most manufacturers know that this not a good model, not if you want to keep your retail chain anyway.
I can never understand why the OS doesn’t provide the mapping for free. We paid for it originally through taxation and the ePSIplus organisation has been fighting the bastards for years, to make this publicly owned data free.
The OS very nearly buckled a few years back and there were reports that its 1:50k and 1:25k mapping was to be provided FOC but last minute lobbying by them to the government scuppered that.
They are a bunch of economic illiterates who don’t realise how lucky they are to have jobs – as the taxpayer still funds the majority of their costs.
This example merely shows them for what they really are – a bunch of unethical naked opportunists, willing to screw their business partners.
Harrumph!
Alan,
Although this is slightly off-topic can I just say that free maps from the OS are a bad idea. If that happened then every Tom, Dick and Harry who could write a little bit of ‘simple’ code would make a ‘map app’ and what we’d end up with is loads of crappy map apps for free or at a ridiculously low cost.
Given the above then there would be no monies for ROI on dedicated map software, built us and others, to provide you the consumer with the better map tools you so desire. Why should a dedicated developer spend his working life banging a head against the wall…
This has played out in the USA with free Libre USGS maps (although they are not safe to use) and the map market there is rubbish, because so many just want cheap or free maps.
But cheap is what cheap gets.
-neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
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CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
Thanks for commenting Neil; It’s good to hear it from an insider’s perspective.
As I understand it, what you are saying is that the developers have to buy very large chips in order to sit at the table. Surely, all this does is increase the cost to the consumer? If the price of entry to the game was brought down to zero (ie, O.S. gives the mapping to the developers) then the consumer has the choice of buying a “crappy map app” done badly or a “smart map app” done really well. This is a value choice that consumers are used to making. The “smart” developers will have their costs reduced and so have a product that will be more affordable, and more likely to increase sales revenue.
I object to the O.S. charging developers for data that has already been paid for over the years.
Hi Alan,
Well there’s quite a lot more to it than that but, in essence, the developers need a margin on the maps ‘to be in business’.
If the OS map cost was brought down to zero then the majority of people will vote with their wallets, and for those cheap or free maps; That’s just the way it is – so many just can’t see the difference in quality in the software or even the map representation… Which means dedicated developers turn away to something else or go out of business.
Take a look at one of the most popular ‘long-term’ free Ordnance Survey map apps on the iTunes store, for which users comments speak for themselves (but, ahem, what did they expect for free!).
[https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/iosmaps/id302579411?mt=8]
- But still downloaded to this very day – even though not supported since 2010.
I’m afraid not everyone sees ‘value’ the way you and like-minded walkers do. Which, in itself, is a much smaller market-place and much harder for some businesses to survive in.
-neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
————————-
CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
Neil reminds us of the importance of support.
I always look at the long term support given by really good software companies in other areas. ANd then I look for this in the mapping world.
As always you do get what you pay for — normally!
Neil,
I can see the argument against free mapping, but don’t you think the cost of the digital 1:25000 maps far exceeds the level necessary to ensure that 3rd party mapping companies can continue developing good quality products. This is especially true for people who would like to buy large areas of mapping to allow them to plan walks across the whole country, and also to eliminate the chances of discovering a bit of map is missing due to the current practice of downloading a patchwork of affordable map fragments.
At the moment the 1:25000 maps are fine for people who simply want a small specific area, but for coverage over the whole of Britain the cost is around £2400 to £3200 which completely unaffordable to most people, and more to the point is well beyond what they should be asked to pay for maps which have been produced for the benefit of the country.
For comparison, the Ordnance Survey’s new OS Mapfinder product equates to £5800 for Britain (my calculation) so even more expensive.
Don’t you think that a price of say £400 would encourage much higher sales of National mapping to the benefit of both users and mapping companies, whilst not undermining the viability. My guess is that if the price was dropped by a factor of 8 (e.g. from £3200 to £400), then sales would increase dramatically.
Paul
I have the whole UK on 1.50 which I think is good value. For much of the UK you simply don’t need 1.25 – I buy one stop 25 maps for those areas that I need individually but I can’t imagine why anybody would want to buy one stop 25 maps for the whole of the UK!
Hi Paul,
The discussion on map pricing is a hairy old chestnut and not easily solved, something we’ve discussed internally and with the Ordnance Survey.
In answer to your comments I must ask two questions:
1) How many people do you think will be (and want to install) the whole Ordnance Survey GB 1:25k map? Note that this map is just short of 10Gb install size.
2) How often do you think people would update this map?
-neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
————————-
CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
Not very often!
One of the routes I am currently planning is the Eight Points of Britain walk – so yes – I would like 1:25 maps for the whole of the UK. The 1:50 are pretty rubbish in rural Britain as they don’t show footpaths accurately & field boundaries.
I agree with Paul; The cost seems scandalously high. As I see it, at double the scale there’s four times the data, so the price of the whole of Britain should only be four times the price of that of 1:50 of Britain – so no more than £500.
I think we are being royally ripped off for the prices of the 1:25 digital mapping – unless Neil can tell us any reason why this isn’t so?
You may be right about data but your suggested use is unusual and very specific. The vast majority of punters won’t need it and demand will be small. For many walkers 1:50 will be enough. I would guess cost is something to do with OS licensing rather than data conversion, again maybe Neil could let on!
Paul, Alan and Andy,
The Ordnance Survey 1:50k maps are relatively underpriced.
- Sales at the Ordnance Survey thought up the idea of dramatically chopping the price of the GB 50K map a few years ago to stimulate sales and it did, for a short while…
-
Andy is right, most punters won’t want all of the data, but let’s also look at it from the retailer point of view:
- Say the GB 25K map was available for Paul’s suggested retail price of £400.
- There are for GB 25k – 403 Explorer maps that we at RouteBuddy sell.
- £400 ÷ 403 = is what the customer would expect us to charge for an Explorer map, and that suggests a retail of £0.99 per map.
For those that sell 25k map tiles, like Viewranger, we’d be talking of say retail 14p per map tile.
-
Selling maps is not the same as selling consumables at a low price, with weekly repeat sales, and is why there are so few specialists in this business.
If anyone thinks they can get rich, make a living, let alone a profit on no margin, then they’re really welcome to try!
-neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
————————-
CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
Hi Neil.
I now understand that you have to make a margin on the mapping as a reseller of the mapping data in order to stay in business. Where your company succeeds is in the way you make this data “user friendly” for the customers. Thanks for explaining that.
Going back to pricing: There are 204 1:50k sheet maps of Great Britain and these are commonly found at below £200 for the digital full set. So, using your own analogy of price per map this is no different to the price point that Paul and I both suggested earlier in the thread; There are 403 maps at 1:25k so it should be around the £400 price point, to be in line with the 1:50k map pricing.
By all means, tell me if this logic is flawed. I’m willing to be persuaded, but at the moment I cannot see why the maps are so expensive.
And by the way – thanks for engaging like this – I cannot see any other mapping businesses prepared to be so transparent. It sets your business apart.
Hi Alan,
No, that doesn’t work, it’s a different pricing structure.
But looking at what you said, viz. £400 for GB 25K, then that wouldn’t work because customers would expect an Explorer map for less than a £1; at which level there’s no business margin, just a loss.
I suspect that the issue lies in the model as used by the OS, which is different to overseas pricing models – and they’re more in line with common-garden pricing structures as used by most manufacturer>wholesale>retail concerns in this country and abroad.
But I’m not at liberty to discuss the terms of our agreement with the OS… sorry!
-neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
————————-
CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
THanks Neil — at least you have bothered to engage with us!
Thanks for getting back to us, Neil. It’s more or less what I had been thinking – Ordnance Survey’s pricing structure. They really are shameless.
Not really shameless ….
It was British Waterways who started this in the ’80s when they realised they could develop a lot of their land and they soon didn’t need a grant from the government. This inspired the current business model.
Despite everything else that is said, OS is under a mission to maximise their income whenever possible.
You might invoke the concept of public service and I might agree with you.
But it is no longer our taxes that pay for it!
Over half the Ordnance Survey’s income is still from the public purse, Andy.
But I think it against specific priorities Al?
Even after threatening to sue me for putting my Anquet mapping on my blog, I have still heard nothing from them, years later. They are lying, cowardly scum. Let’s see if that provokes a resposnse, eh?
I think if is time I tried some of that EPO!
I would ask that nice Mr Armstrong; He had huge supplies – but be quick, because it goes off with time.
Watching how all this develops is most interesting.
-
Will this action by the OS be a catalyst for industry, egg on the face for some, or the end of consumer choice and innovation? Those questions, along with the many other topics yet unaired, will need to be assessed and answered, for there are so many facets to this action as yet without comment…
Initially, why?
Because it is not as simple as the ‘”Ordnance Survey releases a map app. Nor for the Ordnance Survey is it as simple as releasing a map app.
I say this because from those of us long on the ‘consumer side of the industry’ we can tell you it is not that straightforward; at best akin to opening a can of worms, and at worst opening Pandora’s box, and that’s long before whatever we work on for years as software vendors starts to become a viable business. And it doesn’t matter how big you are, or how much money you throw at it, ever – and I’ve seen it all before.
-
The fascinating part for me is looking at this like a game of chess, so many moves, and so many options; But there will be losers, some big, some small and certainly for the customer. But that, in itself, depends upon whether any lateral thinking now comes to the fore from the developer community.
-
Anyway, must get back to preparing RouteBuddy 4.2 for release.
- neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
————————-
CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
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I find that Viewranger suits my needs admirably. I’ve bought the entire UK set of mapping at 50k and wont buy it again until it’s thoroughly out of date.
If I buy 25k mapping it will be through VR too.
This won’t affect my buying. OS are too late to the arena.
Ditto Carl’s comment. I’ve already invested in Viewranger mapping so that’s where I’ll be staying for now.
Carl and Martin,
Complacency?
What you’ve both said is an ‘ideal’ for you as consumers, and perfectly understandable, but it’s not the big picture; So let’s look at it from the software development/engineering/maintenance point of view…
The Ordnance Survey now mimics Viewranger’s offering viz. ‘web map and iOS app’; So if consumer revenue to Viewranger dries up, because of Ordnance Survey intervention, and Viewranger is forced (through lack of revenue/funds) to go under, then so could the engineering support to ‘maintain’ the Viewranger iOS or Android apps.
Now we all know that iOS has minor, as well as major, updates; so if Viewranger is not available (or exists) anymore to maintain the app, or on Android keep up with both Android OS updates, as well as any ‘different’ phone manufacturer(s) firmware updates that affect their software, then the apps start to break down. This can happen to any developer / vendor but depends on the company background.
The outcome of what I am saying is that in a few short months, at worst, or within say a year at best, the apps either start to get flaky or maybe don’t work at all.
In other words you may well own the maps, but if you can’t see or use them then they aren’t of much use.
Viewranger now have some very tough decisions to make, and they have to make them soon. That’s not to say they don’t have options, probably four in all, but everything comes at a price.
- neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
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CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
Neil. Condescending the consumer (your potential consumer) is a bad idea.
If that (viewranger going under) happens then I would buy a different map app. Simples.
Same as if a car manuf goes under. I run the old car till it breaks and then buy a different marque. It’s not rocket science, it’s basically how the business world works.
Take HMV as an example. They cream it off before digital comes along. Then they get caught off guard. People go and buy digital from their armchair. Other people sell digital better, and its hello to the administrators for HMV (I acknowledge that I simplify a little here).
If I lose my VR mapping in 3 years because VR go belly up, then the mapping will be mildly outdated anyway. I would buy it again by tile, as and when I need it, from some other provider. Or I could get a deal on the whole of the UK somewhere. It could be from Routebuddy, or Anquet, or even the OS themselves. But whats £100 or £150 every 3 or 4 years? I mean, we probably spend £500 or more every year on outdoor clothing/gear we don’t NEED anyway. Why not have lots of different mapping software? I had memory map UK for for 5 years before VR.
What Alan says rings true. Free isn’t always best, but it could be, and that would be our choice as consumers. Cheap and cheerful or reassuringly expensive?
WE decide.
Carl,
No, not condescending at all, and my apologies if you took it that way; However I do speak with a lot of industry knowledge to hand – and am too long in the tooth to tell it other than it is!
Nor am I sure of your car analogy because that scenario wouldn’t play out as described.
HMV did cream it off, that’s true – but they needn’t have gone under. Their problem was an MD who was so out of touch with the modern world, and probably as old as the brand!
-
With regards to your comments on Viewranger mapping then you’d have to refer back to my original point – because you are assuming it’ll work for a long time and then just die, and software, like cars, doesn’t do that; You either update them, or get them repaired, and for each there is a cost.
But in a nutshell:
- Free map app = Low quality limited-use application and little or no support.
- Cheap map app = The above – and having to re-buy when you get fed up, which is when the cost eventually adds up to, or exceeds, the quality map app software.
-
“WE decide”?
That’s only if you have a choice…
-neil
Neil Wilson-Harris
————————-
CEO RouteBuddy Ltd
http://www.routebuddy.com
This is madness.OS is owned by us, therefore they are there to serve us. On our behalf they license their data to their partners who build products and pay license fees.
Now, this government owned agency has decided to compete head on with british SMEs that made the market, paid OS fees, pay taxes, employ people and now face potentially going bust because they can’t afford to compet with the power of a £100M Government Agency.
Oh and to cap it all, OS uses (our) money to advertise this new service.
Net result less profit to be return to the government because the advertising cost is so high, British small businesses face further difficulties (as if life wasn’t difficult enough at the moment). And all because our government is competing directly with them. Madness!
You could put it like that Reverend!
Hi all
I have had a good read though all these comments and was wondering why is not a group legal challenge ?
. if this is left ,they will soon think they will take on the commercial mapping market which is worth many more £££.
Regards
Sam