Must Be This Way » The State of Lightweight Backpacking in the UK

The State of Lightweight Backpacking in the UK

One of the nice things about the TGO Challenge is that it is (nicely) old fashioned. After the event we even get a final report. The report came through the post yesterday and was interesting reading. But I was very surprised to read:

This was not a Challenge for the ultra-lightweight brigade: May in Scotland is now very unpredictable and you do need really good gear to help you through as well as a strong attitude.

I’ve temped to reply, “rubbish”. I spent time with most of the lightweight Challengers this year. All of those I met had a great time, finished and were having a great time in Montrose when I last saw them. Maybe there was someone who had a bad experience but in general the lighter-weight approach seemed to prove itself again.

The TGO Challenge does offer an interesting insight into the kind of gear that mainstream backpackers are using in the UK. After each Challenge so far I’ve written a piece on this and this quote prompted me to do the same.

Role Models

There’s no doubt that Colin Ibbotson has caught the attention of many and the imagination of more than a few. Colin is now well known by Challengers who gather round his tarp and campsites in wonderment! There’s also some fun around this. Gordon Green and his rather irreverential mates had a great gag going through the latter stages of the challenge, producing a tiny stuff sack and claiming they’d got Colin beat! Colin takes this all in good spirits!

Few of us are going to read Colin’s stuff and head out to the Scottish Highlands in a tarp, although a few first timers did just that this year. But there’s no doubt that folks like Colin make us think and reassess our gear.

I saw some terrible blisters on this year’s Challenge, and heard about many more. I’ve no doubt that many of problems would have been avoided or far less painful if people had made sensible decisions about kit. However, it is not my job to preach. The Challenge is a personal event and part of that Challenge is choosing your gear. However, these are some of my observations from this year.

Tents and Shelters

I missed that Challenge last year. During that time there has been a definite move towards lighter shelters.

On my first Challenge the Hilleberg Akto was king. On my second I began to see a few more Laser Competition tents, which are half a kilogram lighter. This year I reckon the Laser was pushing ahead. It now seems to be the tent of choice for new, solo, Challengers. And when the time comes to replace the Akto it’s clear that the Competition is the main choice. The Akto may be more reliable up high in strong winds but on the other hand Competition is cheaper than the Akto.

John Manning started out with a Laser Photon which is even lighter than the Competition. He switched for last week to his Henry Shires tarp tent, a single skin tent. Alan Slowman was using his Stephenson Warmlite tent which is also single skin but a monster size for one and still lighter than the Akto. Also using a Henry Shire tent was Chris Townsend who was using the Scarp, a similar tent to the Akto but one which is more roomy and lighter. Phil Turner was using a Golite Hex tarp tent.

US backpacker couples Rob and Lisa Hausam and Nigel Ellis and Lyn Paquette both opted for the same arrangement, a Lunar Duo tent from Six Moon Designs. At just over 1 kilogram the Lunar Duo is half of the weight of a Hilleberg Nallo of a Terra Nova Super Solar 2.2. The Lunar Duo is a very roomy tent and apparently coped very well with wind. As Stirling begins to climb against the Dollar I wonder if we’ll see more of these in future years.

The Six Noons Lunar Duo

And there a few other tarps.

Alistair Hunt was using a large two person tarp. He’d had little time to practice configuring the tent but found that he had so much room to play with that it was easy to keep dry without any difficulty.

Jon Hancock was using a Golite Tarp. I liked Jon’s attitude. He was using lightweight gear but gear that didn’t cost a fortune. Much of his gear had been collected over the years but selected for lightness, comfort and effectiveness.

Tarps in Bramaer belonging to Colin Ibbotson (left) and Jon Hancock (right)

And, of course, we had Weird Darren who used his tarp occasionally!

To be honest, I can only see this trend continuing. I think we will see more tarp tents and yet more Competitions on future Challenges.

Packs

There has also been a move in this department as well. The Golite Pinnacle is now quite a popular pack on the Challenge. Although this is a ‘backless’ tent it is cavernous, indeed, I sometimes think it is too big. With that much space you’re going to be tempted to fill it up. I reckon the Golite Jam is capable of a Challenge crossing and I noticed more that one or two of these as well.

Kate and I both use ULA packs and as usual there were a sprinkling of these around the trails. But I noticed this year that those I saw were the Circuit and the Ohm, lighter than the Catalyst than I used on my first Challenge.

To this we’ve also got to add a few Gossamer Gear Mariposa packs and a few OMM packs.

I think there’s change in the mainstream department as well with Osprey’s lighter packs being particularly popular, especially the Exos range which are reputed to be more comfortable than the Atmos range. These packs still seem to me to be heavier than they need to be but I guess that they are more than half the weight of what you would have used ten years ago.

You can only use a smaller pack if you’ve begun to get your gear list down. Most problems I reckon are caused by just carrying too many things. The use of down gear and a determination not to take three pairs of everything will help a lot. I noticed — with my cunning powers of observation — that even some of the cynics are carrying suspiciously small packs. They’ve been cutting down their loads

Stoves

I didn’t really get a chance to go into this is any depth, but from chats I reckon there are more and more lightweight meths stoves being used these days.

Boots and Shoes

Back to those blisters. This was a very wet Challenge. The people I met all got their blisters the same way; water got into their boots and they became impossible to dry out.

However, I think more and more people are using lighter, boots that are more breathable — especially those without Gore Tex linings.

Of course, I use Inov-8 shoes. Quite a number of the first timers were using them this year, indeed, for a few days we walked in groups where everyone was wearing the Inov-8s. We splashed through streams and bogs happy in the knowledge that the shoes would dry out quickly.

Inov-8’s are not everyone’s cup of tea. But other brands of trail shoes were well represented on the Challenge.

It would seem that more and more people are trying out lighter footwear and that once they do the boots stay in that cupboard under the stairs.

I’ve no doubt that there is a clear trend towards lighter gear. I do believe that this makes hiking more pleasant and leads to fewer foot problems and injuries.

I’m sorry that the TGO organisers feel the need to have a pop at lightweight hikers. They did this after the last Challenge I was on. It seems unnecessarily provocative to me. Light hikers crossed Scotland as well as the others, high or low. They all professed themselves to be happy with their kit and most chatted openly about how they could go even lighter.

If you are worried about the comments quoted above and are thinking twice, remember. These comments are nearly always made by people who have never, ever, walked for any length of time with modern, lightweight, gear!

87 Comments so far
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You should have told them rubbish. It is still the trust in heavy kit thinking.

Skill, navigation ability, decision making and good old determination weigh nothing and make or break a Challenge. Deciding to change a route based on the weather. To drop down from a storm into a glen, navigate correctly and saving time and energy are every thing. Light kit was used by the founder of the event on his Munro walk so why is it so wrong now if he went light in the 70s? Hamish used a single skin tent then.

On tents I will say it again the Akto is no better than a Laser Comp. I have used each in bad weather and the Laser will stand up to any thing the Akto can if pitched correctly and at half a kilo less with more porch space makes it the number one choice for me. Trail shoes rock and light packs work.

Good points Andy and don’t stop saying it. I just had a trip to Scotland with all sorts of weather and used light lit and trail shoes. Most of the miles were off path on boulders, tussock, heather and the like. I never twisted my ankle, slept cold or got wet. I did some of the highest mountains in the UK and came to no harm. Tent was 1 kilo, pack 780graames, sleeping bag 700 grams. Says it all. Light works. What fails is lack of skill, experience VS the trip aims and the wanting to keep at it when your tired, hungry, and it seems a long way to go and your pack weight is 40lb and breaking your back.

Have to say I had the same reaction when I read that comment. It seems ot be made from a personal prejudice rather than from someone with the experience of using said equipment.

As Martin says it isn’t new concept and the gear Hamish used then and now would only differ in the materials they would be made from, I bet. The result would be the same. A greater benefit from carrying less.

Many people were carrying 65lt+ and 15kg+, which for me makes for hard work. They managed though, however every single one of those complaining about bad blisters were carrying such pack weights.

So if nothing else I rest our case. Carry less and enjoy it more. More faster and with less tendency to stumble. Choose your footing and be able to look up and enjoy the view. We saw a soaring Golden Eagle, and THAT was worth carrying very little for!

Agree with everything Andy, Martin and Bob have said and I wonder what the organisers based that comment on? Out of the 40 odd Challengers that failed to finish how many of those were travelling ultra-lightweight or even lightweight? Certainly all the lightweighter’s that I encountered made it safely to Montrose and appeared to be coping with the testing conditions better than the average Challenger. That said I did hear one story of what appeared to be a woefully underprepared individual that was using a tarp but had not brought any poles or pegs. I didn’t personally meet this individual so I cannot guarantee the accuracy of that story but if true then I find that worrying for the future of lightweight on the Challenge. Personally I’m even more determined to carry on proving the doubters wrong. I may only have 3 Challenges to my name but I’m in it for the long-term. Certainly among Challengers there is still a long way to go and I got a 50:50 good/bad reception from fellow Challengers over my kit which still really annoyed me at times.

Colin keep at it. I ain’t convinced about tarps but: light packs, sleeping bags and the like I am all for. Walk your walk and ignore them. I checked out what the average weight Hamish Brown used in his book. He said 23lb. He used Bill Tilman’s view in “It is rather a problem deciding what you must take and what you can leave behind, but it is amazingly simplified when you know that you have to carry it all your-self” As PTC said on going light – “it gives us back the hills” It gives us as Bob said time to pick our foot placements and take in a view.

Andy,
As a first timer I agree with your wise words:
Packs. Before the Challenge I purchased a Golite 2009 Quest from Uncle Bob too big for the challenge. (Its for sale for £70) I hasten to add everything else I purchased from Uncle Bob and Aunie Rose is fantastic.
Also Footwear as you know I did the whole Challenge in Terrroc`s no problems so comfortable (and no waterproof socks) brillant.
Now do I have to mention Paramo Stretch Pants !!

I noted those comments in the Final Report with surprise too. Was there a Challenger who had problems with lightweight gear? Maybe.

The lightweight gear I used this year was just as functional as the gear I used on the first Challenge back in 1980. I don’t have a record of the weight of my pack then but it wasn’t that heavy. My tent weighed 4.5lbs (Ultimate Tramp), my sleeping bag 2.4lbs (Pointfive Orion) – both would be lighter today with silnylon and Pertex fabrics. For insulation I had a small piece of 3mm Karrimiat – I carry more than that now! I did carry far more clothing than I do today (a change of base layer, a change of trousers) and a petrol stove, though by the next year this had become a gas stove and the clothing had dwindled.

I still reckon the Akto is an excellent tent for the Challenge, especially if, like me, you want to camp high. There’s no reason why the Akto can’t be part of a lightweight load. The Scarp 1 performed okay but I’d rather have had the down to the ground flysheet of the Akto. My pack weighed 13kg when I set off, including six days food and camera gear. The Akto wouldn’t have added much.

Spot on Cbris and Windy.

I received a lot of comments about the size of my pack. It may have been smallish but I carried a two person tent in it. I was still warm and comfortable.

I’m pondering a new project at the moment which would use open source software to create a small social network for UK lightweight hikers – but are there too many sites already?

Seems like a strange comment from the organisers. I would expect them to be more enlightened. Was it the wet weather that caused problems? A 170g waterproof is just as waterproof as a 670g one.

As long as your new project is able to be used by non-techie types like me, go for it Andy. I still think a spreadsheet is something you lay your dinner on!
Mike fae Dundee

I just hope that spreadsheet is made of Spinnaker Mike!

This new idea would use a series of software modules that Wordpress are developing which allows anyone to set up groups, cluster friends and provide status updates rather like Facebook.

It would only work though I reckon if we fiercely kept it to lightweighters.

As for the Challenge don’t worry about it. This is the echo of an age when there was a bit of a military feel to it and where some reckoned they weren’t real e unless they had carried a tank across Scotland!

“This is the echo of an age when there was a bit of a military feel to it”. I must have missed that age Andy! It certainly wasn’t there when the Challenge began. Hamish Brown wouldn’t have stood for it! His pack weight for his round of the Munros in 1976 – starting in early April – was lighter than most Challengers carry to day. A pack with no frame,padding, hipbelt or pockets, a single-skin tent, no insulating mat, no hat, no gloves, no poles ……

Oh, and I think a social network for UK lightweight hikers is a great idea.

Yeah, interesting and unnecessary comment. From my point of view the Challenge was almost a trade show, permitting me to view lightweight kit actually in use in a UK context, rather than on an (often) American website in (often) Californian sun. I generally walk solo, so I don’t get the opportunity to network with others pursuing an ultralight approach, so some form of social network would be most welcome to me. It seems that there’s an informal online community that liaises via various Web 2.0 technologies (Darren Christie is a committed Twitterer for example), but a one-stop-shop can only be a good thing. On another note, I’ve been chatting to Joe Valesko at ZPacks.com recently and he’s supplied me with his kit list for an upcoming CDT thru-hike. It’s WELL worth a look, particularly if you’re interested in MYOG. I’ve put it up at phil-turner.net .

I’ve not read the Final Report yet, but I too would be interested to know what provoked the comment referred to above. Has somebody already asked? If not, I’ll email Roger to enquire.

After the Challenge I heard that it had been suggested that those with bad blisters had been the people wearing trail shoes. It seemed to me that the comment (i.e. the one about the trail shoes) was based on ignorance and prejudice.

Clearly there are some people who still don’t feel it’s safe to go out in the hills without heavy leather boots on. Having seen my little puppy dashing up and down rocky outcrops in the Lakes this weekend, with nothing but her pads and the strength that regular walking has developed in her ankles to keep her safe, to say nothing of my own experience of cross-country running and quite a few fell races in very lightweight Inov8s, it’s obvious to me that that’s rubbish. Ultimately, though, people with closed minds are happy to ignore the evidence in favour of bolstering up the same old prejudices.

….. which is relevant as MYOG is where I see ultralight backpacking in the UK
progressing.

There’s a problem with Twitter. I’ve just stopped following Darren as I don’t like Big Brother. I’ll still read his blog though.

Chris: I take your point but I’ve also me some early Challengers who seem to pride themselves on carrying massive weights. Some of these folks can be quite obnoxious, giving you the benefits of their views without any prompting.

I suppose that all life is on the Challenge! Each to their own butt I wish people would keep comments to something they have tried!

I’ve just stopped following Darren as I don’t like Big Brother. It’s a phase he’s going through .

I like the idea of a social network for UK lightweight hikers, as long as newbies can ask stupid questions and not get shot down, which seem to happen on a few of these social network/forums.

I’ve been hanging out at the bushcrafters forum lately as there is more info over there on stuff like hammocks, bivvy and tarps.

It would be good to have a place to pull all this type of stuff together.

I think the lightweight movement in the U.K.is big enough and strong enough now to have its own forums.

Andy, I’m happy to say that I’ve managed to avoid those people. Mostly. I was once told by a Challenger on the summit of Mount Keen that I shouldn’t recommend Brasher Boots because they were too light for hill walking. He was horrified to discover I was actually wearing a pair and had done so all the way from the west coast.

I have emailed Roger to ask about the comments in question.

For my part, I’m no fanatic about lightweight gear but I know that a lighter load suits me well without compromising comfort or safety. Were I taking a higher, more difficult and exposed route then naturally I would choose gear suitable for it, but even so I’ll not return to the sort of weights I was lugging around when I was new to hiking. For the route I took and the weather I encountered my gear worked very well, trail shoes, tarp, wood-burning stove and all. Indeed, the only thing I wish I could have changed was my relatively heavyweight sleeping bag; a newer model would have offered much greater warmth for half the weight. Light does not necessarily mean inferior.

It’s all relative isn’t it? On the Challenge I met a guy in Kinlochleven who’d been wandering about the Highlands for five weeks carrying a 60lb pack. He’d started off with an 85 lb pack. And this with a TN Laserlite.

He seemed happy enough with what he’d got, and as he’d done five weeks compared to my four days who was I to tell him he didn’t really need an axe or a saw?

Those who know me will know I told him anyway

He didn’t take any notice

John

By thye way, I shouldn’t take to much notice of Roger’s comments. I have a sneaking suspicion he’s a bit of a leg puller.

>I have emailed Roger to ask about the comments in question.

Ta, Chris. I’ll be v. curious to know what he says, particularly now that I’ve read the Final Details and see that only 8 (from memory) of the 48 people who dropped out reported terminal blisters.

This is a very interesting debate. I suspect much of the antipathy towards lightweight gear simply reflects the conservative nature of many outdoor enthusiasts in the UK. The ‘not invented here’ syndrome is also apparent in the anti-GPS mentality that pervades a great deal of the outdoor ‘establishment’.

One of the joys of life is to embrace new ideas and new ways of doing things. As Henry Ford said:

‘Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young.’

Excellent comment Neil, absolutely correct. The outdoor industry is often very conservative and doesn’t like new ideas. At the same time it’s also forgetful. I can remember when synthetic base layers (called thermal underwear back then) came in and people were saying it would never replace wool (which in those days was more itchy and thicker than merino). Then after synthetics had become the norm and merino wool appeared people were saying it wool would never replace synthetics! And on an outdoor course in Snowdonia I remember being told my nylon tent which had already been used for many weeks in the Scottish Highlands was not suitable for the hills as it was too light and that only a cotton Vango Force Ten was adequate.

Always being open to new ideas is indeed exciting and wonderful.

I do not care if the comment was a bit of humour it reflected a attitude held by many towards light kit. I thought about it a bit more after my last comment. Consider Waterproofs used by claimed ultralight Challengers weighed more than a lot of the others who carried the so called acceptable heavy kit I think. Andy Howell used a Paramo jacket which would be around 800g in weight. So did Colin Ibbotson with his 40L pack and tarp. Alan Sloman with his 46L pack and 1 kilo tent. So the light weight kit using Challengers there kept warm and dry. There is no grounds to criticise those who carried light loads in regards to waterproofs.

Andy mentions Trail shoes. I always wonder why they are acceptable to run in over a mountain on a Mountain Marathon carrying a tent, sleeping bag, stove etc – but if you walk and have time to look were you are placing your feet it is wrong?

So too assume that the light weight backpacker wrapped up in his Paramo jacket in the rain having to pitch his 950 gram tent at the end of day to crawl into his 650gram 0c rated down sleeping bag resting on his Neoair mat which weighs 260 grams and cooking his meal on a stove that weighs 16g and still boils the water or heats the food like a 400 gram stove stove at the end of the day is a Challenger using unsubtle kit makes no sense. Just like the comment and attitude it reflects.

Martin, the comment certainly reflected the received wisdom regarding lightweight gear in much, probably most, of the outdoors world – you see it in books and magazines and from shop staff and outdoor instructors.

Your comment on trail shoes gives the reason I started wearing them a long time ago. I asked myself why I wore running shoes for mountain marathons but boots for backpacking and decided the only reason was habit. I’ve worn Inov8 Terrocs (same pair) on the last three Challenges.

Whatever the reasons behind the comment, the fact is, is that it has now been made and broadcast to at least 300 people. Some of whom now feel smug they have Uncle Rogers approval to carry 20+kg and ache for the whole 2 weeks, and others who feel they were irresponsible having the audacity to enjoy themselves and only carry half that weight.

Comments aside, there was no one I met whose gear failed no matter the weight. Yes there were folks (myself included) who were dissapointed at the features of certain pieces of kit. However it all did the job, no matter the weight. People were fascinated by Colin’s handbag (Kates term I understand) but he seemed to fine and well when I saw him in Bramear.

There was no judge and jury among the challengers themselves, only it appears, from those sitting in a warm hotel listening to the weather reports and incoming calls.

I still find the whole thing bizarre. Such an odd thing to say, displaying ignorance and prejudice steeped in an entrenched viewpoint, which is stated every year for the last 5 years (if you have a look), in the concluding paperwork. Sorry Shirl, I don’t think it is humour or a wind up. Personally I think it is just simple inexperience combined with a lack of grasp of the outdoor industry these days. Go into any shop and everything is lighter than it was 5 – 10 years ago. Every brand is striving to produce lighter products. So it is inevitable that people will buy and use those products on forthcoming trips.

Such a strange thing to actually commit to print methinks!

Sensible comments Bob but I don’t think it’s just recently that lightweight loads have been possible and perfectly safe. And again I’d refer people to Hamish Brown, the founder of the Challenge, and the lightweight gear he used on his round of the Munros in 1976 – before most of the materials we take for granted. In the 29 year history of the Challenge it has never been necessary to carry 20+kg.

I have to agree with you all here. Despite having never undertaken TGOC (yet), I get the impression this attitude will continue for years to come. For some its the mental attitude that holds back a lighter approach – that classic belts and braces approach everythng.

We do have to remember though that going lighter isn’t as easy for some as others. Its a change in mindset as well as gear. As Chris points out, lightweight/multi-use gear isn’t new and yet in 30 years attitudes haven’t changed all that much. I think we’re all just better off getting on with it enjoying what we do share in common – the hills.

It was a rather silly comment to commit to print, but surely its inevitable that us ‘lightweights’ will only increase in numbers on the TGOC (and backpacking in general) thus making these attitudes seem even more short-sighted and unfounded?

Andy I love the idea of this lightweight forum. I’m interested in how this will work and how you intend on restricting it to ‘lightweights’…

Bobs said:

“Sorry Shirl, I don’t think it is humour or a wind up.”

Try to keep up, now, Bobs! It was John Hesp who thought that, not me

Seriously, though, I don’t think it’s funny to put that sort of comment in the Final Report. As I said above, I think that sort of comment arises out of ignorance and prejudice.

Just a thought.
Could the organisers be trying to protect themselves legally?
Mike fae Dundee

Mike fae Dundee asked:

“Could the organisers be trying to protect themselves legally?”

I don’t think that can be it, though I see where you’re coming from. The place for that sort of attempted protection would be in a suitably worded warning/disclaimer on the application form, rather than in the Final Details.

I’ve thought for a few years that it would be a good idea to have such a disclaimer on the application form, and to require all applicants to sign to confirm that they’ve read and understood it. (I’ve volunteered in the past to write one, being a lawyer in my other life.)

I´m only wondering if anyone of the tarptent or tarp users spent that wind-swept second Friday night under his silnylon or elsewwhere?
Spent that ferocious night inside my Akto. The temporary inhabitants of Ryvoan Bothy were fairly surprised next day to see me and another Challenger who was also using an Akto still alive.

Markus
The one who shamefully didn´t make it to Fraserburgh

Whilst I appreciate that TGOC organisers have abused the captive audience with this statement, what can be achieved by challenging it? The best result is that Roger formally retracts his statement (doubtful) but this would achieve nothing in terms of moving forward.

The likes of Bob and Rose, lightweight bloggers, and retail outlets like Winwood are where the future is in terms of educating the heavy brigade and giving people a choice. I also strongly believe the presence of you guys on the Challenge has to make a difference to attitudes/resentments…eventually!

Anyway best go as my new Inov 8 Roclites have just arrived….no really – what a coincidence!!

Markus,

Don’t panic. An Akto can take anything!

There were two tarps up at Braemar on Friday night and they seemed to cope OK. Colin’s tarp doesn’t even flinch in the wind!

As a general rule, tarp users will camp lower down the hill if things look really bad. They might even sleep in the bothy but that’s there choice!

It’s worth noting that the term “ultra-lightweight brigade” is used, generally referring to a sub 10lb/4.5Kg baseweight as opposed to ‘lightweight’ which would be sub 20lb/9.1Kg. Of course ’super ultralightweight’ would be below 5lb/2.3Kg…..

Hey, Markus! We were VERY pleased & impressed to see you & your Akto intact after that wild Friday night at Ryvoan!!!

‘Nearly light-weight David’
(who spent the night in the bothy!)

“Could the organisers be trying to protect themselves legally?”

Surely that goes both ways; carrying to much heavy equipment can damage your back and your enjoyment

I take Andy’s word for what was in the report but how many of us non-challengers has see the report (it is usually up on the tgo challenge website but not as yet.) It would be nice if Roger did come back and gave a valid answer to whay the comments was made, as it seems as most lightweight challengers made the crossing O.K.

The Dude Abides (interesting name!) said:

“Whilst I appreciate that TGOC organisers have abused the captive audience with this statement, what can be achieved by challenging it? The best result is that Roger formally retracts his statement (doubtful) but this would achieve nothing in terms of moving forward.”

I’m not sure that anyone is thinking of challenging it in any sort of formal way, and I confess that my heart sank at the very idea of anybody attempting to get Roger to retract the comment. Least said, soonest mended, ISTM. (Just my opinion, of course.)

I would like to know, though, what provoked the comment.

George pondered:

“I take Andy’s word for what was in the report but how many of us non-challengers has see the report (it is usually up on the tgo challenge website but not as yet.)”

Here’s what it says.

“This was not a Challenge for the ultra-lightweight brigade; May in Scotland is now very unpredictable and you do need really good gear to help you through as well as a strong mental attitude.”

The clear implication is that ultra-lightweight gear is not ‘really good’ gear.

It seems to me that what’s important is that the person using the gear has the expertise to get the best out of it, safely. For instance, I consider myself pretty safe with lightweight camping kit, but I wouldn’t have a clue how to put up a tarp, even on a sunny, windless day. Colin, on the other hand, knows exactly what to do with a tarp, and he’s always going to be safer in his tarp than an inexperienced person who hasn’t done his/her homework would be with a sturdy tent, in foul conditions.

So, the gear we choose carry is only part of the equation. What’s more important is that we know how to use what we decide to take, and–perhaps most importantly–when it’s time to bug out and make for Braemar

Hi Peewiglet, I should clarify.

I wasn’t hinting that this should be challenged (or retracted), quite the opposite in fact as, it’s the successful challenges under your belts that best stand a chance of promoting the success of lighter crossings (in this case but also backpacking in general).

I doubt it. If they are thinking that way they are mad. People do this at will – there’s no legal authority of any mind to be signed.

To offer a legal defence you would have probably had to offer real guidence before the event.

This has happened before, certainly at the end of my last Challenge.

Personally, I don’t really worry about this. But it is sad really.

Can you imagine:

The TGO Challenge: sponsored by RAB (heavy weight gear only) and break-your-back-gear.co.uk

It’s just a little sad really.

Careful now, RAB do an ‘ultra lightweight’ range – here

Hello, The Dude Abides.

I know what you mean, and I agree

Sorry Phil. I was trying to be ironic!

I am struggling to see what the problem is here. OK, the comment was a little below the belt but I’ve also read several slightly snide/superior comments about ‘the heavyweight brigade’ on various blogs and how they need educating. There are just 2 different mindsets here – one is not better than the other, just different. Isn’t the ability to exercise a personal choice why we go into the hills anyway?

The problem here is really, I guess, that these comments are not true !!!

You are right James this is a personal choice. Notice there are no snide comments on this long thread.

All of the criticism comes from people who have never used this stuff and therefore have little idea what they are talking about!

All seems a little odd to me.

James said:

“I am struggling to see what the problem is here. OK, the comment was a little below the belt but I’ve also read several slightly snide/superior comments about ‘the heavyweight brigade’ on various blogs and how they need educating.”

The other problem is that the Final Report isn’t a Blog. That sort of comment in the Final Report is meant to be read as fact, rather than opinion, and to inform people’s choices of kit on future Challenges.

Andi,

The ultra-lightweight philosophy has its benefits and limits. At least for the average backpacker. In my view going ultra-lightweight in the Tartan Boglands (Scottish Highlands) performs best when used by well-trained and skilled hillwalkers. I agree that weight matters but not at the cost of safety. Maybe a salomonic advice for Challenge participants would be going lightweight instead of going ultra-lightweight. Without any compromise for safety. I´m trying to go lightweight. Nevertheless I´m interested in the innovations brought to us by our ultra-lightweight brahmens.

Markus

Live from the Alps … still a slackpacker´s paradise …

Markus I agree with you. The reason these comments have led to so much reaction is that they seem to have been made in ignorance. They may be more than a little provocative.

Personally, if someone wants to carry 20 kilograms on their back that’t fine by me.

But to say ” This was not a Challenge for the UItralight brigade” is completely over the top. This is not the first time this has happened.

They could have said this:

“Scotland in May is now very unpredictable and you do need really good gear to help you through as well as a strong mental attitude. We appreciate that many Challengers are looking to reduce the weight of their kit. It is important that kit is properly trailed and that users are comfortable with using it in poor weather conditions.”

I don’t think anyone would argue with something along those lines.

As I say, I’m getting tired of criticism from those who have never tried gear out! Personally, I like to feel that I have at least a little knowledge of what I’m on about!

Still, the Challenge organisers do a great job and deserve all of the compliments they inevitably receive.

“This was not a Challenge for the ultra-lightweight brigade; May in Scotland is now very unpredictable and you do need really good gear to help you through as well as a strong mental attitude.”

Markus I was agreeing with what you wrote until I read this “Maybe a salomonic advice for Challenge participants would be going lightweight instead of going ultra-lightweight. Without any compromise for safety”. I personally found that as offensive as the original comment from the organisers! As far as I’m aware I was the only Challenger travelling ultra-lightweight (though I could be wrong) so that comment must be directed towards me. Assuming it was then I guess you have also looked at my kit list? So Markus please explain what safety compromises I made? My gear choices are never at the expensive of safety which is why I choose heavyweight Paramo waterproofs and have spent years perfecting my Challenge shelter.

There was that story of the woman with a tarp but no pegs or poles — if this was true then she must have been slightly barmy.

I suspect this was aimed at all of us using trail shoes and so on. It is the trail shoes that really seem to get people going!

Still, they’re entitled to their blisters.

Maybe there worried you might run in them Andy? Running on the Challenge is not allowed. Then if you ran in your Inov-8s they would be acceptable. Someone will think you are training for a Mountain Marathon and those Inov-8 will be ok.

Ok the sarcasm is out of the way. I recall in 2006 on the Challenge it: rained, snowed, and the wind blew strong at times. My mate got flooded on a wildcamp and we had a good time in the rain and cold. I recall meeting Brendan if I got his name right. He took a 45L ULA pack, Rab 700g sleeping bag (Rab do make light kit Andy ) he also wore Inov-8 shoes and light waterproofs. Most importantly he used a Six Moons single skin shelter. Light as a tarp. He made it across Scotland. If going light worked then what is the problem now three years on?

When you are forced to pull out of a challenge, it is a pretty harrowing experience (and we all know how hard it is to get on). Contacting control and passing on the reason for the withdrawal over the phone is no easy task.
I would recommend that all challengers who do not make it across are asked to fill in voluntary questionnaire some time after challenge so that accurate statements can be made and guidance given.
In my instance pack weight with 5 days food was less than 15kg. I was wearing a pair of boots that I have worn on past challenges, but they were never soaking wet as they were this time for best part of 5 days (I am also a prolific sweater).
I will be back and my intention is to bring my weight down to at least 10-12 kg and I am now going through the process of selecting the trail shoes.
I also found CT comments about the Scarp useful.
If any of you gear gurus require more info on how to become a cripple in 7 days feel free to contact me.

Byron – you’ll be back! Any of us can have to pull out but was gear the problem?

Commiserations, Byron

Sore feet are terribly debilitating. I don’t think there can have been many of us who entirely avoided the blisters on this trip, but one of the things in favour of the trail shoes is that they do dry out pretty quickly once the wet conditions have finished. Leather, on the other hand, simply doesn’t. That’s been my experience, anyway.

Very best of luck for future Challenges. I think your suggestion about the questionnaire is a very good one

Interesting article and discussion, Andy. A point why this statement was published hasn’t been mentioned thus far:

People are naturally adverse versus change. Change in this case means lightweight gear, from trail runners over tarps to lightweight backpacks. They are not familiar with it, they don’t know it, they don’t trust it.

Of course I agree with you that it is not very positive to post this kind of statement in a Final Report, especially if the writer has never tested said gear. But maybe it was just his fear of this new movement (UL) and what he saw it within his power to hinder this movement? Its just wild speculation, as I haven’t read the report or have taken part in a Challenge.

A couple of years ago I met a couple on the Challenge who were using Inov-8 shoes. They hadn’t tried them beforehand and one of them was in difficulties and pulled out after four days. They were carrying heavy packs. I don’t know whether the trail shoes were the reason but I suspect something like this has entered Challenge folklore!

Andy,
Yes I believe my boots did not perform as expected(2 year old boots), I am now looking hard at my equipment list and have already started an evaluation a pair of inov8 330. I am also aware that I need to drop my pack weight down to under 10kg to allow me to enjoy the journey.

I’m not sure where that comment Andy referred to came from, either. Andy’s word for it, though, was accurate. Rubbish. My husband, Rob, and I both carried ultra-light gear and backpacks and wore trail shoes and not boots. We both did very well. All of our clothing, our sleeping bags, backpacks, etc., served us very well. This was my first Challenge, and I would go with our gear again without any hesitation. I have become a great believer in the ultra-light backpacking movement and think it is here to stay. I have to admit that, like Martin, I am not convinced about using a tarp, mainly because I like to be enclosed when I sleep. I still like a good tent. I believe that if people who doubt the ultra-light backpacking gear would give it a fair try, they would come away with a different opinion.

Hi Andy,

Just back from Braemar where I’ve been catching the snow over a few days.
To be clear about the sub-2k discussion in Edzell: This was in no way intended as a poke at Colin or any other lightweight gear user (otherwise I could direct the comments at myself). We had a great meal in great company and my stuffsack contained a nice PHD lightweight windshirt! I was somewhat heavy for my first Challenge at 10.5k – including three days food.
But, next time I will be a good bit lighter (the pack, not me!)
Gordon.

Hi Andy,

In the light of your comments regarding me and my “irreverential mates” I have now penned a piece on the TGO message board.

Gordon.

“Alan Slowman (sic) was using his Stephenson Warmlite tent which is also single skin but a monster size for one and still lighter than the Akto”

Actually Andy, it’s a sealed, double skin tent between the precurved poles and only the end cones are single skin. It weighs 1205 grams with all its big fat titanium V pegs and stuff sack and is far far more stable than an Akto.

Talking about lightweight / heavyweight / whatever weight on the Challenge is surely immmaterial if the backpacker is two or three stone overweight? Okay the fat backpacker might have a more comfortable crossing if he is carrying a few pounds less on his back, but just think what a good time he would have if he lost those 28 lbs of fat from his belly?

I have always maintained that carrying a light load is a good idea in order to have an enjoyable crossing but I can guarantee that if the fat walkers lost all their self-indulgent fat they would have a splendid time!

And it would save the National Health Service a fortune in later years.

“Sorry Shirl, I don’t think it is humour or a wind up.” … Bob

Try to keep up, now, Bobs! It was John Hesp who thought that, not me … PW

Ouch!!

Perhaps not humour and definitely not a wind up, but the final comments are obviously peppered with Roger’s opinions, and the lightweight comment is obviously Roger’s opinion rather than fact. I wish people would take my opinions so seriously

“Talking about lightweight / heavyweight / whatever weight on the Challenge is surely immmaterial if the backpacker is two or three stone overweight?” … Alan

Quite, and similarly, those who are male, 12 stone and 6′ 2″ will have a different carrying ability to 5′6″ 8st female.

John

I’ll have a look at some point Gordon. Just writing about the great curry event – nice night out.

“This was not a Challenge for the ultra-lightweight brigade: May in Scotland is now very unpredictable and you do need really good gear to help you through as well as a strong attitude.”

I read that as the opinion / observation of an sensible and experienced backpacker. I certainly didn’t interpret it as anything else.

John

I really should have taken more notice of the teecher when I was at skool: that should have read ‘A sensible…’, not ‘AN sensible…’

Whoops!

John H said:

Quite, and similarly, those who are male, 12 stone and 6′ 2″ will have a different carrying ability to 5′6″ 8st female.

Very true, and that’s another interesting issue. Just goes to show how truly rufty-tufty we female challengers actually are *grin*

“Just goes to show how truly rufty-tufty we female challengers actually are *grin*…”

Wot! Wimmin on the Challenge???
When did that nonsense start then????

Slooooman said:

Wot! Wimmin on the Challenge???
When did that nonsense start then????

Ha! When the blokes eventually conceded that they couldn’t manage for a fortnight without them *g*

Blimey… A good pal has drawn my attention to this thread and I’m gobsmacked at how much of a reaction there’s been to those few words of Roger’s in the final notes.

What a sensitive bunch we Challengers appear to be!

Thank heavens for JJ’s commonsense. The bit of Roger’s comment that caught my eye was: “May in Scotland is now very unpredictable and you do need really good gear to help you through as well as a strong attitude.”

In that single sentence Roger gets in the effects of global warming, the character and fortitude of backpackers and the essential need for good gear. Good gear, I took that as meaning, can include good lightweight gear.

Unbelievably there seem to be allegations here of prejudice towards lightweighters, and ignorance about modern gear. What on earth?

The TGO Challenge is the most all-encompassing event you’ll find on earth. It draws folk from every background, of any religion, of any gear persuasion. Did any one feel as though they were treated like as second-rate backpacker when they received their certificate in Montrose? Thought not.

Any consideration given to which magazine sponsors and promotes the event? Is it not the same one that’s driven the lightweight movement in this country or years? Do you know who was launch editor of TGO (clue: he’s a very experienced, much respected backpacker)? And that in the very first issue of TGO there was a feature by Robin Adshead entitled “The Lure of Lightweight Camping”?

Or am I mistaken, and perhaps lightweight UK only took off once the blogging world came into being!

We’ve a 1300-word response to Roger’s nine-word “This was not a Challenge for the ultra-lightweight brigade” and another 6000 words of comments.

Quite an amazing reaction. I wonder whether anyone’s given any thought to whether this is all over the top?

I’m touched that Andy’s made mention of my two lightweight shelters – if he’d asked how I got on with them I could have given him a sneak preview of my TGO gear write-up that’s destined for the October issue of the mag!

Enough ranting from me… back to it guys and gals!

Each time I have completed the Challenge I have posted up my observations on gear. This thread has a life of its own now but my intention wasn’t to enter into another argument about lightweight — this was a post designed for those who already see to point of it all. These arguments will go on forever but it is why I’m thinking about starting something just for those of us who are into all of this who want to be able to share ideas and thoughts without all of the chatter from the skeptics.

This wasn’t something aimed at magazines or even the Challenge, although I still have no idea why Roger put that stuff in.

Lightweight UK may have only taken off with blogging but that is probably precisely because the mainstream magazines have been so poor. Actually, I think TGO’s focus on lightweight was the real catalyst and we just chatted about it. The chat bit is something that bloggers do better than magazines simply because magazines have not yet understood the importance of moderation, of keeping ‘pot boiling’ or so to speak.

But magazines may have another problem in that they appear to be too professional at times. I appreciate that aspirational articles can be important — I may not ever go walking in the Highlands but I like to think I might one day. But there’s probably not enough day-to-day content for many people, and that’s where the blogs come in. John, I know you have views about this but I’m not going to ‘out’ you here !!!

I will be fascinated to see if somebody manages to capture the middle ground between current mag policy and the blogs. I see GROUCH as a possibility although I really don’t like things that are completely anonymous — I have no idea who they are and who they speak for.

As for John’s two shelters I dare not reflect your views on Shelter 1 — this is a family blog

I suppose views on this lightweight thing will run and run. The point I was trying to make in this thread is that I can see quite a lot of change since I first walked the Challenge four years ago. People have been looking to lower pack weight, they have been reading TGO’s stuff and they seem to think they are benefiting from it. The move to open up the lightweight debate is one of TGO’s better editorial moves — mind you I’m sure we bloggers gave them the confidence to do it!

Time to sit back and wait for another 90 odd comments !!!

Cheers Andy,

I’m sure that the late Robin Adshead was very much encouraged by bloggers’ feedback to his 1978 TGO article! (Roger was editor of the mag back then, for those who weren’t aware).

My rant (and it was a rant, I confess!) was more provoked by use in the subsequent columns and use of words such as “prejudice” and “ignorance”, which in my view was unfortunate and unjustified, an over-sensitive reaction; if Roger was indeed intending to be provocative, then he’s certainly succeeded, just as he succeeds every year in organising an exemplary backpacking event.

I love the idea of a lightweighters’ forum/community Andy, and hope it will be open to all so that many more backpackers and aspiring backpackers can benefit from the experience of those like Colin, who are at the cutting edge of the practice here in the UK.

Now, I must go – Sierra’s lightweight nappy has suddenly, noisily, become a rather heavyweight one.

Sorry, just reread that – second para should hasve started:

“My rant (and it was a rant, I confess!) was more provoked by use in the subsequent comments of words such as “prejudice” and “ignorance”, which in my view was unfortunate and unjustified, an over-sensitive reaction;

I take your point — that was not in the original post rather in the subsequent discussion.

There is a balance to be struck here. Nobody is suggesting that Roger doesn’t do anything but a superb job — I’m the first to take my hat off to him. But there is this niggling suspicion from a lot of people that a lot of the new blood are there to be shot at! I still think my form of words would have been more welcome.

In my experience by far the most aggressive comments in these kind of debates comes from those who have no idea what we are talking about.

I’ve seen a lot of lightweight hikers suggest benefits for lighter kit but I’ve never seen any of them tell people they’re talking crap — which is what effectively happens.

Personally, I’m more interested to discussing things with people (like you) who understand what we’re talking about. That’s why this discussion has been on a blog rather than a general discussion forum I reckon!

This makes 74 comments so far — I think I need to lie down in a darkened room!

No.75

Hi John,

It was me who mentioned ignorance and prejudice. Here’s what I actually said, though.

And yes, I do think that those who only wear heavy leather boots but insist on having a pop at the people open-minded enough to try something lighter speak out of ignorance and prejudice. NB: I didn’t suggest for a moment that it was Roger who’d said that. It wasn’t, btw.

It’s a great pity if it’s not possible for people to take issue with a comment Roger made in the Final Report without it being suggested that we don’t respect him, or acknowledge his enormous expertise. I, for one (and I know there are very many more), have enormous respect and affection for Roger, and I don’t see having a different POV in relation to something as being in any way inconsistent with that.

No.75

Hi John,

It was me who mentioned ignorance and prejudice. Here’s what I actually said, though.

Evening Shirl,

I thought your post “my heart sank at the very idea of anybody attempting to get Roger to retract the comment. Least said, soonest mended…” was a great injection of sense into the debate!

I wasn’t intending to single out any particular post, just the general drift that I perceived (perhaps incorrectly? Not sure!) towards a “them and us” debate about lighters and heaviers.

Some certainly seem to have taken the comment in the final report personally, which I think is a shame and an over-reaction – there’s no kit check on the Challenge, and nowhere does it state that you won’t be allowed to take part if you insist on sleeping under a hanky, wearing a Gore-Tex thong and having shoelaces tattooed up your shins to save weight on the real thing. Nor does it say that each foot must be clad in a heifer, that four-layer tents are mandatory and that packs under 40kg will be handicapped with lead weights!

I don’t regard myself as sitting at either end of the heavier/lighter scale – I have the kit I’m comfortable with and if that means that I have to carry one or two heavier items, that’s the price I pay.

I’ve no problem with folk taking issue with the final comments but, the way I see it, too much has been read into that particular comment – I don’t know whether Roger’s aware of this debate but if so he’s probably gobsmacked, and hopefully chuckling into his Glenfiddich – and it might be time to step back, have a day in the hills, and come back to look at it with a fresh perspective later on.

I haven’t time to do that this weekend so I’ll have a beer instead!

No.77

Morning!

It seems to me that one of the most interesting things to have emerged from this discussion is the question of whether a distinction should be drawn between the relative safety of ‘lightweight’ and ‘ultra-lightweight’ kit.

I’m sure poor old Andy doesn’t want me to spawn any further discussion in this thread, which is already very long, but I’ve posted my thoughts on the issue over at my own blog here (I hope that link worked), and if anyone else is interested in the topic then I’d be very interested to hear what they think over there

Well, I’ve been holding my tongue for a while, but given that the thread lingers on I’ll butt in now…

Two things I want to say: first, I find it interesting that all the comments have focused on the perceived slander of ultralighters safety standards, whereas what I find rather objectionable is Roger’s nod towards fashionable consensus where he says ‘May in Scotland is now very unpredictable’.

Anyone with an experience of Scotland (or anyone who bothers to check historical records) will know that snow and gales in May up in the Highlands are absolutely bog-standard. It has always been like that and it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise. In fact, despite all the doom mongering, we haven’t had a serious winter storm up here for a couple of years, we had no serious spring tide this year and most of the ‘predictions’ have so far come to nought. So, to suggest that ‘now’ May in Scotland is unpredictable is just utter tosh.

But I think that in general Roger has a point, although he expressed it poorly.

What he should have said is: guys, if you want to go ultralight, fine, but never compromise safety. Be prepared to change your route if necessary, pitch down at glen level if in doubt and do not skimp on extra layers.

It is perfectly possible to be safe and light. No question about that.

It is also perfectly possible to go too far in cutting down on kit and end up in trouble.

Personally, this year I managed to break the magic 10lbs baseweight and I’m now officially ultralight (although I still stick with boots, given that I don’t like the idea of trail shoes coming apart on a rocky ridge, and I’ve read far too many reports of folks having their Inov shoes breaking off in the middle of nowhere).

The only times I’ve been in trouble, interestingly enough, have been in winter when my kit was *too* heavy!

Indeed, it’s clear that you can go wrong both ways. What matters, and what Roger should have said, is: whichever kit you have, be safe!

And safety has nought to do with kit weight, but with being on the hills in a way that is appropriate for your kit (and vice-versa).

Just my two cents

I’d have been happy with either Andy’s word formulation or mine.

Mountain walking is all about judgement and compromise. Tarp users may well have to compromise a little although people like Colin don’t. Know your kit and use it wisely is. something all of us can agree with I guess.

I also thought the weather comments a little odd. Our start was bad so we took another route, otherwise it was very wet. But wet weather can come as no surprise to anyone walking in Scotland.

I don’t really understand these Inov-8 complaints though I’ve hears them as well. Mine have stood up to Scotland, Snowdonia, Irish bogs and the high Pyrenees – Terrocs. In geneneral they are not as robust but I get a year’s wear out of mine ( and I know Colin gets something similar out of his). Other brands may be more robust.

A heretical voice from the wilderness writes…The Challenge is primarily a social event so there is no surprise when percieved disapproval from big daddy in control causes surprised outrage from the ‘ultras’ a group of lightweight upstarts.
The Challenge is good for bloggers and TGO magazine but has nothing to do with the(shamelessly lightweight & elitist)joy I get from walking and camping in the Scottish hills.Please walk your own route-be a devil don’t subscribe-organised event bah! be disorganized-walk through your own time.End the TGO challenge now before it becomes a monster,give us peace in may-do the decent thing Chris Townsend speak out and let there be no more…

Hmm, not sure I want to get into this one. The Challenge can be a social event but it doesn’t have to be.

Must admit that my best walking in Scotland (on or off the Challenge) has been done on my own.

“The Challenge is primarily a social event”. I never knew! Maybe for some it is. I usually meet very few people. One year I met no one until within a hundred yards of the Park Hotel. This year I met two people at Culra, then spent an evening in Dalwhinnie with the same two and another Challenger. Other than that I saw no other Challengers and hardly any other walkers.

As to weather in May, the coldest, snowiest Challenge I’ve done was in 1984 when an ice axe was needed high up and crampons would have been useful. The snow was a foot deep on the Cairngorm plateau.

You can walk across Scotland any time you want. If you want to join in a social event, though, the way to do it is via the TGO Challenge. otherwise, it seems that you are taking just up somebody’s place. Why are you doing the Challenge? For the badge?

The mind boggles. fancy doing the Challenge just to get that badge

To be fair the Challenge is what you make it. This year’s crossing, for me, was a social event and I found that all a bit too much. My next route has been planned to “do a Chris” and I expect not to see anyone until I get to Montrose

(No doubt a lot of you will be relieved — especially as there will be no podcast mics to content with!)

what a great debate going on here. Very illuminating and dare i say entertaining……

Just my 2 pence worth….

I have been trying to go lightweight ever since i endured the DofE scheme back in the 80’s. Back then, we had a kit list that we had to adhere to and ended up looking like sherpas and carrying stupid weights (my estimate is about 40lbs+)

When I finished the DofE, I started tinkering with my kit and started doing things like wearing clothes in bed and taking a 2 season bag into the autumn and winter. I ditched the boots back in ‘86 and started wearing non waterproof fabric low mids (essentially trainers with a soft low ankle cuff ) . I also discovered that the tent I was using (2kg) could be pitched without the inner and save even more weight.

Back in the 80’s I was a teenager with a yearning for the hills and not a huge amount of money so had to improvise but I did manage to get my rucksack weight down quite a bit. I even had a frameless rucksack which was great until the stiching gave way on the shoulder straps! These days, the choice for ligtweight kit is endless and I have progressed a bit further and i still love experimenting with my kits and the weights.

Long live lightweight backpacking!

sorry for the late post. have been perusing reviews on Akto and Terra Nova tents and was fascinated by the above! I was using a tarp in the marines in the early 80’s! weight was a massive issue and ever since my fitness has gone down and the kit has by necessity followed! I’ve been lucky enough to get paid to “camp” in every continent and every conceivable climate, poles, one or two “big” peaks and have been cold and wet carrrying over 100lbs and cold and wet carrying 10lbs.

who gives a monkey’s what you wear or carry? it’s your choice, do it and stuff what anyone else thinks. if you break your back filling a crusader with the kitchen sink or lose your toes crossing ice at minus brass monkeys in your summer trail shoes it’s down to you.

just write a review so i know wether or not to use the stuff will you!

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